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So what's next? Lawsuits brought against the UC system to prevent homework? And then we can all sue our employers because we have to do work from home on some evenings or on the weekends. The world may have changed for the good so as to recognize student stress and its drivers. But outlawing homework altogether will do nothing more than create a fantasy world which will be blown up the day the kid starts college. I suggest a one day symbolic district wide homework strike to raise parent and student consciousness.
Do a lot of media, have parent ed events leading up, and invite parents to a symbolic homework shredding or burning. I agree with JLS Parent that there is too much homework and although I'm not sure we should make a Federal case out of the issue we should definitely put pressure on the district to change the way they teach and assign HW. My child is in 6th grade at Jordan and already has an incredible amount of HW. I am not looking forward to high school! I really think a lot of the HW is due to the teachers not actually teaching the material but just throwing it at the kids, expecting them to learn it on the spot then continuing the teaching of the material at home through HW.
My child and his friends confirmed this saying they spend a lot of time in their classes taking notes on lectures but not getting time to understand the material then they go home and try to do a lot of math problems and projects! I don't think it is the fault of the teachers who seem sympathetic, but I think it is someone at the top pushing the Common Core standards down on everybody, expecting the kids to magically master a lot of new material in a short time.
That should be true, but the homework load and the level of actual teaching varies widely from teacher to teacher in the exact same class. I would like to agree with Craig Laughton. I had a similar experience. My best teachers did not require homework. In my case it was physics and English. We all learned a lot, and there were interactions with the teachers. I agree with Craig, I learned a ton. Note you said "give" homework, not "force you to do homework". If you don't want your kids to do homework, and don't think it is of value, tell them not to do it, and accept the consequence.
If they still know the material, get good grades on the test, they'll still probably pass. Neither you nor your child will end up in jail for not doing homework. Why aren't our children taught what they need to know during school hours? That is not to say that students shouldn't read chapters in a book to discuss the next day or practice a few math problems on a something that they have already been taught.
The problem is that homework is used to replace teaching. And as parents, it ruins any chance of family or personal intellectual challenge time. It might stay the same, but it's not gonna get any better. Consider moving to a city that is less competitive or sending your child to a private school, such as Woodside Priory. I say this in all sincerity, not to be rude. Or see the outcome of McGee's teacher evaluations to help teacher consistency - maybe there's hope for us.
The other option is to homeschool, which is not necessarily you teaching the child. There are homeschooling programs where parents join their students with teachers. I know someone who is doing this precisely to avoid any homework. I have no idea where is the enforcement of their education and what they are learning. Is "homeschooling" code for "no schooling, but still legal"? Don't want to dish the homeschoolers who take it seriously, as I do know some, but I know many who just want to avoid the structure and stress.
Chris Zaharias: I find it difficult to believe that any PAUSD high school student has less than 7 hours of homework per week - that's only one hour a day - it's not really possible, even with easy teachers. I guess it's possible if the student doesn't care about grades and is sliding by with a 2. And that's where your unscientific poll is deficient - the variable of work ethic.
Paly parent observes:"The problem is that homework is used to replace teaching.
And that is why it is so heavily relied upon by teachers. Relatively little effort from the teachers for a lot of payback. It is efficient from their perspective. And parents are enablers trapped in a system scrambling for college admissions. If anyone thought that there is any innovation in education - there you have it: Standards have gone up? Add homework. Higher expectations from community? Can't explain English Analysis? The kids will teach themselves, or the parents will, or the tutors. There is little self respect left in teaching.
Maybe 1 in 3 is actually a professional who strives to really teach clearly; to help kids clear up misconceptions, to inspire learning. All the talk of reform is a joke on the kids and parents - the teachers control your grade admission to college, and they have NO accountability, so you have to teach yourself. They are just there to do the sorting. Agree with "TheSortingHat": "the teachers control your grade admission to college, and they have NO accountability, so you have to teach yourself. I agree with Paly Parent, Mr. I know in some systems, not doing homework won't have serious consequences, but here it would.
While no one is forcing anyone to do homework, the homework is a part of the educational program and if someone refuses to do it, they may well flunk out and the consequences may be that they don't get the public education they are due. Every child is entitled to a free and appropriate public education -- it's a fundamental right that comes from the US Constitution.
The Constitution does not mention homework, though, or the subject of such boundaries, except perhaps in how we might interpret the 4th Amendment. I would go further to say that I think it's unreasonable for a a school to have unfettered priority with my child's time 24 hours a day in order to receive a free and appropriate public education. Midtown parent, I didn't realize traditionally disadvantaged groups were essentially hurt by the homework. I would love a link or further information. I was assuming that traditionally disadvantaged students would be better off for having homework because they might not have similar access to outside opportunities.
I wonder, though, if all these new computer-enabled knowledge environments are changing even that. I think back in the day, when at least in for most people there was no Internet, less access to educational reading material, less interaction with other people, homework was the best educational opportunity. There were few alternatives unless it was music lessons for those who could afford them. I was assuming the disadvantages would extend to all these new opportunities because of the digital divide, but maybe there is enough access especially with mobile computing to actually begin leveling the playing field, I don't know.
But my assumptions made me wonder about the wisdom of, essentially, a ground-breaking boundary-setting litigation over the issue, because traditionally disadvantaged groups might be hurt if homework were not an assumed part of the education but nothing was improved during the school day. Maybe that's another circumstance that would improve by soul-searching over boundaries between school and home. Crescent Park Dad, I think your points deserve their own deep conversation about what prepares kids for life and college.
Just tonight we were sitting with colleagues who discussed their disappointing experiences as employers with employees who were the straight-A intense academic types. The feedback was, the hires didn't know how to do anything of their own they didn't put it that nicely. They were good at regurgitating, but not very independent. The research seems to back that up. Although life has taught me many lessons in the interim, I look back and feel the same about my own education -- I thrived on the intense academic experience and really enjoyed pushing against that structure, but while I was extremely resourceful, I was not very autonomous.
While I'm not trying to say everyone is the same, the world of work is not like school. Like This is Why, please don't assume the alternative to homework is essentially goofing off. The alternative in our home would be far more high-level educational pursuits, including the unpleasant grunt work necessary to get any major thing done. It's just relevant to achieving something real, not busy work.
But if someone wanted to goof off, why shouldn't they have time of their own every day, and why should they have to account for it to the school? Schools that run 24 hours a day are called boarding school, that's not what most of us chose. My kid got a sheet recently in relationship to a class final exam, ostensibly to help plan time in to study, but it asked kids to account for their time 24 hours a day for a few weeks. I was horrified at the intrusion. It again exemplified the assumption that the school had priority in the use of my child's time, and by extension, my family's time, for all waking and some sleeping hours of the day.
I don't think making kids more and more miserable with busywork homework prepares them any better for college either. In my experience at MIT , the kids who were burned out from high school did not do well. My own brothers who were not stellar high school students all went on to be stellar students in top colleges, and successful in life.
The seeds of each of their success began in outside activities, to a one. When I say the world has changed, I mean the landscape for what kids can learn, do, and achieve has dramatically changed in the last years. Per student stress -- I love Thomas the Tank Engine videos for how they highlight a fundamental motivation: To the engines being "really useful" is life and death.
So it is with humans. Most of us need to feel useful in life, to follow our interests, to feel competent. Some kids need that intense structured academic sorting to be happy. Some kids will be doing intense productive educational pursuits of their own if allowed time to be autonomous.
Why should children in the latter camp have to choose between that and a high-quality public education? Especially since the education is a right, and homework and by extension giving up all right to personal autonomy 24 hours a day doesn't seem to be legally a part of the deal. I also want to interject -- thank you to absolutely everyone above for the really great discussion. This has probably been the most respectful and interesting discussion I can remember on this forum, even though there is such a range of views. It's been really enlightening to me to hear the experiences and views.
Experienced, Thanks for your comment, I didn't perceive it as rude. If any of the options mentioned homeschool, going to private school were really feasible, or likely to solve the problem, I would be doing them already. If Nueva has plans to move into my neighborhood next year and we can transfer our property taxes into a voucher to pay for it, that might solve things ; Just want to interject some other aspects of life lessons into the discussion that too much homework doesn't allow time for. The first is doing some household chores on a regular basis.
No I am not advocating turning kids into household divas, but dishwasher duties, trash duties, daily bed making, and learning how to do some of the essential chores around a home before they go off to fend for themselves e. The advantages of kids learning to be an employee as well as the satisfaction of a wage packet is a life lesson that can't be duplicated any other way.
Too many kids appear to be graduating high school with an impression that chores just get done by magic and generous allowances are their due or reward for academic performance that they have no idea how the other half live. The life lessons from doing these two activities would be just as influential on their futures as a good GPA.
Parent - you make extremely good points. Our kids would be doing much higher valued things with their time if they were not overloaded with homework. The problem you will encounter is that in order for homework to drop, something else must change. Homework is propping up a broken system. You'll need to either: - accept lower grades as an individual. OR - lower curriculum standards as a state. It's just more homework and families more motivated and monitized to get it done.
To get better teaching with less homework you need better skills in the trade, and accountability. Accountability is legally impossible, so discussion usually stops there. Imagine for a moment a system with accountability To get better skills in the trade you need smarter people collaborating with best practices. Normally in the real world it takes a high skill level manager a lot of effort to overcome NIH and personal pride to get adoption of Best practices. Still, this relies on very experienced management focused on the issue. Most schools don't have that.
The tenure laws render most school management very weak and teachers are masters of their own domain. So they do what they think best, and hubris prevents them from improving. So what do they do best? What they learned in college. And what is that? We are getting our teaching skills from the same public education system that is broken. After a few generations of this cycle We are eating our own dogfood now. How to fix: - stronger hiring standards that include strong parent and student feedback before tenure.
Only 1 of 3 should pass - you need to weed out a strongly defective population. If you don't teach all the kids all the material, your gone. Tenure only goes to those who have been here ten years, who not only teach students, but coach and collaborate to teach new teachers.
Like real dedicated hours teaching teachers. Eat breathe sleep. New hires focus on this intensively for a few years. They should have lighter class load and smaller classes as they are not as experienced, and need the time to focus on the fewer students they have, and to learn the best practices of their seniors. Real, dedicated hours learning best practices. Create a breeder school that teaches teachers and students.
Best practices should be written down and reviewed and updated quarterly. And controlled experiments should guide improvements. The goal should be best learning outcomes with minimal homework. Time in front of an excellent teacher is way more valuable than anything else. Many teachers won't like this. Let the unhappy people go. All of this and more is needed. And you're turning the titanic with a paddle.
Where in the Constitution is this right guaranteed? Teri Badwin is the president of the teacher's union. She will have the ultimate say on homework just as a board member gave her undue influence in the bullying policy fiasco not so long ago. Look it up, it's preserved on paloaltoonline.
I would suspect that Teri and the few PAEA executive board members are working with CTA cartoonist and PAEA negotiator Wendy Dillingham-Plew on defensive responses such as we have too many students and not enough time, the administration has not trained us properly, and the old cliche of the parents are attacking us. Skip all the in-between and just ask PAEA to improve it. Ha ha ha. Um, if they wanted better quality teaching with less homework, they would have adopted best practices years ago. And unfortunately employees rarely self-organize.
So with weak management, unions fighting any attempt at organization and teachers uninterested in hearing someone else's opinion on how to teach better, you'll find that teacher quality is not happening. There is just no structure in place to organize the teaching of teachers, AND to remove those who resist such improvements. If PAEA wanted it to happen, it would already have happened. Back to US History, Thanks for pointing out my error. Web Link From the California AG website: "The right to a public education in California is a fundamental right fully guaranteed and protected by the California Constitution" Thanks for the history lesson, though it throws in a whole other level of complexity.
The Brown decision was based on the 14th Amendment I think , so a case based on the 4th amendment would probably have a similar dynamic between the state and federal jurisdictions. I wonder if it would even need to be a federal case after all, but a state case. If the case were waged on behalf of those who simply want the choice to have a high quality public education without homework but without taking the choice to have an education that involves 24 hour expectations away from those who wish it after all, it would essentially outlaw boarding school , who then would take the side of defending the state's right to that kind of control over children's and families' lives?
But I am no lawyer - thanks for clarifying the law. Does that mean that schools today give out 17 hours of homework a night?
There needs to be a certain amount of homework in high school so they are prepared for college. Yet, my child in regular lanes had several overly challenging teachers one year so bedtime was Midnite after 6 hours of homework and my child was sleep-deprived and depressed. Advanced and AP classes add an extra minutes of homework per class. I don't know how the students who are taking 5 APs can get much sleep. To the OP, don't worry about grades until high school or they could get burnt-out when they reach high school.
My children appreciated that. As far as having chores, there is no time for chores and when they become adults, they will rise to the occasion. I wonder how many parents posting here once thought about being teachers, and why you decided against it. Low pay?
Too much work? Working on weekends? Constant criticism from parents? Someone above mentioned a day of shredding homework. I suggest a teacher walkout day protesting the way they are constantly dissed by P.
A parents who, as always, know it all. Nora Charles, This has been an extremely helpful and civil discussion, please join us. Please start by reading the thread rather than a few posts and jumping in with an off-topic trollish comment. If you would like to just vent with unsupported opinions and sweeping condemnations of parents, please start a separate thread.
Are you a current parent or teacher in this school community? I am a district parent and know parents in every school in the district, and your opinion of them sounds like the bias of a crank, not based in fact. I have found parents in this district to be some of the most caring and intelligent I have known anywhere. They are one of the reasons I think this district is great. I feel the same about our excellent teachers. If you even read the comments above all the way through, I think you will see far more praise of our teachers than criticism. That's really not what the thread is about. This thread is about whether there is a basis in law for schools to assign homework, it's not about ending high-quality education, or even ending homework for those who think it's important for their own children, but about setting boundaries, especially for those who need them.
The kind of work my child is doing outside of school is currently higher quality and a strong education not available in school, and the homework -- like making a t-shirt for science class about an element my child already had to write a cartoon about -- conflicts directly with the ability to do that higher quality work. In fact, it's not even just the time or the assignments, it's simply the expectation that the time after school is at the disposal of the school that is the issue. If families wish it for their children, and if the families believe it is in the best interest of their children's education, they should be able to choose to have non-stop homework that stretches to bedtime and impinges on breakfast.
I wouldn't want to take that away from someone who benefits from it, I was that kind of student. School boards were set up to allow local control for schools, meaning, control by locals, i. The intent was not to foster insular organizations with no checks and balances - that is fundamentally undemocratic and against the reason for school boards in the first place. So whether you like or, as you have voiced, resent the input of parents, it is a fundamental and important part of education code and in this district, the high quality of the district.
Times have changed. The pace of change is accelerating, and it's no longer just the pace of technological change.
Children are wending their way through school while districts play extremely slow catch up. For those whose best interests are served by exactly what we currently provide, they should be able to continue to have that. For those whose interests are not served, whose children are so stressed their very lives are endangered by the system, or who are miserable, or otherwise simply languishing, having to shoehorn in highly rewarding intellectual experiences in the few moments they have outside of homework, or for those whose needs are better met through a very different approach -- like a project-based learning program that we offer effectively through 6th grade but not beyond -- there should also be a choice.
But that's a "should" -- whether they can get that or not, my question remains: does the school have a right, in exchange for a high-quality public education, for families not to be able to set boundaries on their private lives and time after school is out? Is the ability to assign homework and expectations that stretch beyond the school day bound up in the right of a public education?
I think the suggestion of a day of shredding homework was an interesting thought, but if we think about it, one a few humorless and petty types in our district office would use to punish children. But in that same vein, maybe a flash mob in which kids bring all the graded homework from the previous week and bury the assistant superintendent's car -- then put it on the Internet -- that could serve the purpose of making a point.
Though, it might similarly be used It might be funny but I don't think it would have much impact, though. If people are going to organize, I think they should organize to make a direct path to change for those who need it. One of the best ways to effectively allow people to set boundaries on their time, while still getting a high-quality public education, is to allow options to those who need them, like the district in San Jose has in their Learning Options program and which I'm told Silicon Valley entrepreneurs brought in, they've been doing this for 30 years. It allows people options while changing the rest of the district almost not at all -- unless a lot of people end up choosing the options, though if that were the case, the rest of the district would get the feedback and improve.
Such intrinsically motivated improvements tend to usually happen faster and be more satisfactory than mandated ones. San Jose has basically the same board regulations we do that enable that program -- we could literally do the same overnight, if McGee had a team with him capable of doing it.
Academic immersion is not intellectual immersion. A friend of mine who tutors Asian kids not in Palo Alto has told me how astonished he was at how ignorant they are of the world. Their entire focus is on higher grades, but he feels that they are unprepared to be successful adults because of their utter lack of knowledge and curiosity of anything but academic achievement.
Nora Charles writes;" You see, we have horizontal exposure to dozens of teachers for thousands of days. If we have two kids, we have more data. I doubt many of our teachers have this comparative perspective. So for example I can see that one science teacher at Paly was perfectly capable of assigning a reasonable amout of homework, and my kid got ALL of it done without any drama, tutoring or nagging. While a peer in English assigned twice as much, and almost none of it was completed successfully.
It seems to me that the English teacher could learn a few things - not from me, but rather from the Science teacher. Certainly when I discussed homework with the English IS it was clear she would not coach this hapless English teacher. She was missing basic competences such as: - clearly communicating the assignment - setting reasonable amounts of HW - assigning a due date This last one is going to really frost the original poster- the reason the English teacher gave for not telling students a due date is because she expected kids to go home and work on her assignments immediately.
That's right , not only did she believe her work superseded the kids 24 hr limits, she believed her homework superseded all other homework. There are dozens of examples where I can contrast high quality teaching to poor quality teaching. Because I have a perspective the teachers do not have.
It is a loss that some teachers don't see that perspective or value it. But it is obvious that disparity in teaching skill is huge and well within the schools talent range I. Fixable if they would: A identify those teachers who have to improve B share best practices. As for a walkout - I wouldn't mind. That would be one less day of homework. But it would highlight the gap between teachers and community. The community which puts up a lot of money to support teachers who see the world very differently than we see it.
I worry that your statement about civil dialogue ignores the instances of teacher bashing in this thread that went unchallenged: Sortinghat's blanket statements about teachers and their motives. I agree that there are comments above that are simultaneoualy critical but balanced kudos! There's even a comment from a teacher to join her movement! I worry this thread doesn't send the same inclusive message to the teachers who are doing the right thing and who might be willing to champion this cause. Never in my university career did a prof check to see if I did my homework.
If these are to emulate college courses then the marks should solely be on exams and projects. The massive amount of homework allows PAUSD to stand up and point to the rigor of the program unfortunately massive homework is not actually indicative of academic challenge. It also allows those who may not be able to get As on mastery of the material to still get an A because they are willing to play the game and churn out the homework. This is where I see grade inflation at Gunn. I strongly support a class where the student is given an option at the beginning of the year of whether their homework completion will be part of their mark.
What does anyone think about Ratemyteacher. The elementary school teacher had family problems while we were in that class and she was unable to deal with her class efficiently. The following year she had left the school and was teaching in another PA elementary. Shuffling bad teachers who may not have always been bad but definitely had a very bad year is covering up and protecting poor teachers who have tenure and can't be fired. Yes, we have some excellent teachers and they are well known. Unfortunately, we are unable to request our teachers and get the luck of the draw.
Suggestion, Cathy Kirkman's group is great. She faced her own criticisms, please give her your positive feedback! There has been a lot if off topic discussion here, but mostly it has been a great discussion. I have made a couple of pleas and attempts to keep it on topic.
Unfortunately sometimes at the end if a long thread, people only really read a little and voice a strong opinion. You bring up a good point, though, that teachers who might choose it, too, could also benefit from being able to draw better boundaries for themselves in a no homework program, however, this is really about the legal basis for homework, and by extension, the legal basis of families who want better boundaries to draw them for themselves and still get a high quality public education. Rather than restating objectionable comments which at some point the Weekly will eventually delete as they did above, and even my quoting one if them , please add your voice on the topic!
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How teachers might feel about a rule disallowing homework - with proper support to make changes is a little off topic, but might be helpful. In my own experience, teaching staff have gone to great lengths to make all changes that were asked of them, including Every Day Math, even when they were not on board with it. In fact I have often felt the administration office was oppressive about teachers pulling the party line so as not to get parents joining with them against unpopular district decisions like the admin works that a parent teacher organization should never happen, advocate, or be powerful One way to allow parents to draw that line would be to allow the blended learning model as a choice, then even teachers really wouldn't be impacted.
It still doesn't settle the legality or boundaries issue for the future when the issue will become more and more unavoidable. At the end of a long thread, in order to be very clear, this thread is not homework versus no homework, but rather the legal basis to allow homework which could be argued as an intrusion of the state. I'm not actually arguing against programs that give homework because some people prefer it and I think there are students who legitimately wish for those kinds of programs.
But even children like that might find themselves in situations where they were doing busywork rather than challenging work, and wish to change things. If the state can only give homework by consent of the homeworked, people who like homework would have more leverage even to get more of the homework they wish to have, if that is their choice.
I also think no homework boundary setting should not result in an inferior education for those who wish to set those boundaries. If the state has responsibility to provide the education, then it cannot leverage homework or else. If people are interested, some things to consider: 1 Some subjects ex: World Languages might need homework to counter the day of in-class practice lost via block schedule.
What that homework looks like is debatable, of course. Examples: a English: books with fewer pages in-class reading can only cover so many pages --goodbye To Kill a Mockingbird??? Maybe it's about changing what the homework is rather than doing away with it completely? Or maybe the no-homework contract someone mentioned above so kids could opt-in to homework?
What happens when a student changes their mind when they miscalculate that they didn't need the homework? No teacher can grade a semester's worth of homework at the last-minute like that--would their be a cut-off date?
These boards over the years are evidence of that--some parents champion creativity, others don't. Suggestion, Thanks for your thoughtful points. You bring up one of the biggest issues in how we handle education: make everyone do the same thing and try to differentiate class by class, or make choices available. I think ultimately making choices available is healthier. Then each student, as well as each teacher, is in an environment where the expectations and boundaries are clear and desired. I think kids taking the same class but opting out of homework is a creative idea but makes for everyone not getting what they need, and would be incredibly burdensome to teach that way.
For a no homework approach to be an equal high quality education, it would have to be different. Letting families choose the learning styles - and the homework - they desire by program is probably a more workable way, as we already do in early grades. Valid criticism. Total: 16 2 Okay: taught material sufficiently. May not be inspiring or may be hard to relate with, but learned enough to proceed to next year.
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